A reader wrote me recently, requesting advice on his vexing problem. As his problem is often encountered by readers, I have decided to post my response - in the hope it will provide some ideas to readers who may face similar circumstances.
[QUOTE]
7-Jan-2011
Greencoal,
Thank you for your reply. I would like to resolve the problem. Cost is not the problem. What I am afraid is getting conned by plumber who may not do a good job.
Fortunately, I live alone and I don't do my business in the master room toilet except for bathing and peeing.
Rdgs
H
[UNQUOTE]
==
dear H:
Yes, I know what you mean.. and I know you hv tried already to get a plumber who like all plumbers tried to protect his ar.. even before going to the customer's flat to take a look.. Sigh.
You've got to persist, until you get a plumber who is reasonable and upright.. that means you've got to listen to how he explains himself... sometimes I'm surprised, they've got time to argue or talk on the phone with prospective customers but no time to be punctual, arriving late usually for appts.. makes me think they actually got free time but pretend to be very busy. And purposely arrive late for appts as a tactic to justify higher charges to their customer when it is time to pay..
You've got to understd negotiation tactics, once u uderstd more u won't feel too intimidated or worried and will know beforehand how to talk and negotiate with them on the phone, before you decide to get his service.
All the best to you, pl let us know how your situation turns out, ok?
Take care,
Greencoal
==
[QUOTE]
Dear Greencoal,
I read about your bad experience with the toilet bowl installation.
I am faced with the same problem after about a year of installing a new toilet bowl. The smell is unbearable and water as well as waste leaked from the back of the toilet bowl when I flush the toilet. I have lived with it for about 2 years already and I dare not do my business in the toilet except peeing. I use a hose to flush the back of the toilet and now and then, some small 'worms' flow out. The smell comes from dunno where even if the toilet is not used.
Please advise what I should do as a plumber quoted me $30 just to see what can be done and I am afraid I have to pay him for "nothing can be done" or pay extra for changing the toilet bowl which might cause leak to my neighbour in the lower floor.
Cheers.
H
[/QUOTE]
Dear H,
I can really connect with you on this problem you're facing. But your situation is more serious than mine because you've lived with it for 2 long years.
I am not a plumber, so I will not pretend I know what causes the blockage. But I will try to suggest what I will do if I were in your situation.
First, I will ask the neighbors - the floor above and the floor below - whether their toilet is functioning properly. This is to rule out any blockage in the external large pipe that runs and connects to all the flats vertically in yr stack.
I think external pipe blockage is highly unlikely given the diameter of the large external pipe and the more than 1-yr blockage period you have gone through. If the ext pipe is blocked, yr neighbors' plumbers would have visited yr home to check but since no one called you can assume the ext pipe is not blocked. But ask anyway since there is no harm asking, plus if you haven't already, you can make new friends out of them!
Next, I could try to clear the blockage myself, using chemicals and / or flushing pumps produced for that purpose. Ask for the products at Fairprice supermarket or any hardware store. Problem is, you may incur costs without solving the blockage problem because sometimes they work and in some situations they don't. If the products work, cool! The cost will then be less than the plumber's charges.
The smell and worms are due to the blockage, so these problems will disappear once your blockage is solved. But make sure the plumber agrees and accepts he has to reinstall without charge if the smell remains after his repair work. Most plumbers give a 3-month warranty period. You just make sure it includes foul smell.
Finally, assuming you decide to call a plumber, and I don't see how you can avoid that, get a few quotes first. Try HDB, CDC, NTUC http://www.income.com.sg/homeservices/index.asp
and other sources listed on the internet.
It is always a problem getting good competent plumbers. Some are dishonest. Some are not qualified. And most turn up late for the appointment. Check with your friends or the forums for recommendations. Be careful because some forumers' recommendations are false, especially if you don't know them.
Most plumbers do not charge for transport. They will say they will "come see and check first" - then quote you their repair cost which obviously includes transport costs.
You can avoid the uncertainty by telling them - "My toilet bowl cannot flush away the waste. I simply want you to clear the waste, why do you need to check first to see where is the blockage? Because anywhere or anyhow it is blocked I still need the blockage cleared."
"Don't worry. If after your check you find the blockage is external you can give me a letter to give to CDC or HDB to support my complaint to them. In that case I will agree to pay you for yr time."
You may have to call many plumbers to find one whom you think you can trust. Listen to their explanation, what they say and how they say it. Often you can tell whether the guy is likely to be reliable from the way he talks and how he explains his work or service. If you are not satisfied with his explanation simply call another plumber.
Now, re-installation of the toilet bowl will not cause any flooding to the flat below because your toilet bowl is simply sitting on the toilet floor. Unlike toilets installed a decade, today toilets are installed and sit on the floor sealed with silicone or white cement that can be scraped away. Cement is not used, no floor hacking is involved, so the waterproofing membrane is not affected. Mine was first installed in March 2008. However, the toilet bowl was poorly installed, and the toilet had a foul smell after installation. I had to wait several weeks before the ID finally succeeded to get another plumber to re-install the toilet bowl. And there was no hacking of the toilet floor.
So now you know - if the plumber tells you that to re-install the toilet bowl requires floor hacking, he may not be honest. Listen to how he explains the issue. If you find his explanation limp, don't trust such a guy, simply call another plumber.
If you know your existing toilet bowl was indeed installed using a sand and cement mix, which I was told is rarely done now, you may have to get a new replacement, as removal of it may damage the bowl base that it cannot be re-installed. But the floor will still be intact as the floor is not hacked, unless your plumber is careless.
As I said, I am not a plumber, so I could be wrong. Whatever info I pass on here is based on my actual experience, and what the second plumber told me.
Also, the plumber will say the toilet bowl may be damaged during removal and un-installation as a tactical move to justify his intended charge. Just tell him the toilet bowl is sitting on the floor with a sealant, and can be easily removed. Sure, there may be some chipping or slight cracks around the base but that should not affect the functioning of the bowl. He will tell you anything to impress you so he can later justify his target charges. You need to wise up to the tactics these guys employ in your negotiation with them.
Know however plumbers seem to be in shortage all the time and you may have to call many before you find a plumber you think you can depend on, and within your expected budget. If you ask me, I don't think you should agree to pay higher than $80-100 for the repair/clearance work. Don't be surprised, however. Some unscrupulous plumbers will quote $600, some $300 - it is ridiculous but I got that just last year when my bathroom was blocked. That will be the subject of another post.
Well, I hope your problem will be resolved soon and I look forward to that,
Take care,
Greencoal
p.s. Again I was asked by readers who've had problem with their toilet if I can start a list or registry of competent plumbers who provide services for a reasonable charge. I know it is tough getting good plumbers. If any reader has any plumber to recommend pl shout, ok?
As for the plumbers' listing, that has to wait because of my backlog of work. Hope for understanding from everyone!
Showing posts with label toilet install. Show all posts
Showing posts with label toilet install. Show all posts
How to Rid Smell in Toilet
Today a new plumber came to re-install my toilet bowl.
I had complained of a stench coming from the toilet bowl, particularly from 7-8 AM and around 7-8 pm, coinciding with the time when most residents on the upper floors use their toilet.
Obviously something was very wrong with the installation.
When the first plumber came several weeks ago to install the toilet bowl, I had asked why he did not apply silicone sealant around the rim of the pan collar, before he set down the toilet bowl over the collar.
The pan collar is the piece of plastic that connects the toilet bowl to the sewage pipe on the toilet floor. I had felt that a silicone seal would ensure that no smell escapes from the sewage pipe into the toilet.
The plumber said nonchalantly "nobody does that". I left it at that. He is the plumber and should know better than a layman like me, I thought to myself. How I wished I had been more assertive!
After installation, the toilet smelled for several days. Seemed that each time someone on the upper floors flushed the toilet, the smell would escape into my toilet.
I brought the matter to my ID's attention, and requested another plumber to re-install the toilet bowl. I had lost confidence in the first plumber.
After a lapse of several weeks, the new plumber came.
He was concerned he might chip the spanking new toilet bowl in the removal process. That was the ID's concern, not his, I told him, and in any event I could not live with a smelly toilet! He only needed to exercise care not to cause any chipping, that was all.
I told him what I had suspected to be the cause of the smelly toilet: no silicone seal on the pan collar. He agreed as much, though he was aware some plumbers usually do not apply any silicone to the pan collar and no one had complained of any stench.
He noted I had my air vent pipe removed. He said he had read in the papers that some residents had also complained of a stench in their toilets after the apartment block had been upgraded, particularly where the cast iron sewage pipe had been replaced with a uPVC pipe, so probably the problem had something to do with the removal of the air vent pipe.
The logic escaped me, so I was not persuaded.
The plumber got down to work. He managed to unseat the toilet bowl without damaging it. Well done!
To our surprise we found that the toilet bowl had two rectangular openings measuring about 3-inches square on the back of the toilet bowl chamber.
Ah-ha, so that explained why there was a stench: as there was no silicone seal on the pan collar, the smell escaped from the sewage pipe into the toilet bowl chamber, then through the rectangular openings at the toilet bowl base into the toilet room itself.
....
This is what a pan collar looks like. This one has an 1-inch offset:
Sewage pipe outlet - bad odor if inserted pan collar is not sealed with silicone
Thirty minutes later, the toilet bowl was seated back onto the pan collar, now with silicone sealant applied around the rim, as well as on the rubber ring, as the plumber felt that perhaps the toilet bowl outlet pipe was a bit small, resulting in the rubber ring making a less-than-perfect seal around the outlet pipe.
The improvement was quite immediate: the smell was perceptively much reduced!
It would probably take a few more days to confirm that the smelly problem has indeed been solved.
ADDENDUM:
It worked!! I was delighted this morning because the toilet for the first time did not smell.
However, sometimes when someone flushes his toilet on the upper floors, pressure is created that can suck water from your toilet bowl into the sewage pipe. When that happens the water level in the bowl will drop so drastically that it leaves a gap in the "S" bend, allowing foul air from the sewage pipe to seep into your toilet.
So if your toilet smells bad, first check there is sufficient water in the toilet bowl. No, not in the cistern but in the toilet bowl itself. This water in the bowl acts as a barrier to foul air from the sewage pipe, and prevents any foul smell entering the toilet through the sewage pipe.
If the water level in the toilet bowl is high enough above the "S" bend, then you should suspect an unsealed pan collar as the culprit for the stink.
Now, what about the report that some people complained their toilets smelled after the HDB upgrading exercise?
I believe that had nothing to do with the replacement of the cast-iron sewage pipe nor with the removal of the air vent pipe. The reason for the stink was very likely due to the bad installation of their toilet bowl. It was likely cracks developed at the cement base of the toilet bowl when the sewage pipe was changed, and because the pan collar of the toilet was not properly sealed, foul air escaped from the sewage system into the toilet.
LESSON LEARNT:
Ensure your plumber applies a silicone seal around the pan collar when he first installs the toilet bowl. That is the proper and correct procedure to install the toilet bowl. In the west plumbers use a wax gasket to ensure an airtight seal between the toilet bowl and the sewage pipe.
Readers will recall that during the 2003 SARS epidermic, it was reported in Hongkong the virus spread from one floor to the floor below via the sewage pipe. Although details were not divulged in the press report, I suspect the leak was caused by improper toilet bowl installation.
When someone flushes his toilet on the upper floors, obviously the foul air carrying viruses and bacteria will be "flushed" into the toilet on the floor below through the unsealed pan collar. Hence the stink.
I would probably have remained ignorant today of how unsanitary my toilet installation was had I not experienced the stinky toilet bowl problem.
Now, even if you have a toilet bowl that is completely sealed so that no air could escape from the chamber once the toilet is cemented to the floor, it is still advisable to ask your plumber to apply silicone sealant to the pan collar. Otherwise you risk allowing viruses to enter your toilet each time someone on the upper floors flushes the toilet.
As we know, cement is porous and over time will develop cracks so that most people will find their toilets stink after some years, especially for those with unsealed pan collars. You can prevent the stink by getting your plumber to apply silicone sealant to the pan collar during the initial installation of the toilet bowl.
Why risk your family's health?
POSTSCRIPT: Public health was at risk so I posted the issue on a forum, see below:
A friend pm'ed me asking why apply silicone sealant when the plumber already used white cement to seal the toilet bowl to the floor?
Well, the silicone sealant is applied to the pan collar -- the piece that is connected to the sewage pipe hole. If the pan collar is not sealed, foul air (and soil too) will seep into yr toilet bowl chamber due to the air presure at work.
Like others, I did not ask my plumber to seal the pan collar when he first installed the bowl. After installation, my toilet smelled badly, particularly when someone on higher floors flushed the toilet.
My toilet was a 1-piece design, and had 2 rectangular holes at the back of the toilet bowl. Hence I could detect the foul smell. More importantly, I realized the risk I was putting my family to, breathing in bad air, particularly bacteria and viruses from sick neighbors upstairs after they had flushed the toilet.
If not for the toilet design I had chosen, I would not have detected the foul smell, and the problem probably would only surface several years later.
You don't get any foul smell if your toilet bowl has no openings and is fully sealed by the white cement onto the floor. But over time the cement will develop tiny cracks, that is when you begin to detect foul smell from the toilet bowl area. That happened to my old toilet (after 5 yrs), although at that time I did not know what caused the bad smell. Maybe the earthquakes from Indonesia over last 2 yrs was a contributory factor, causing tiny cracks in the cement to appear, thereby allowing foul air to seep into the toilet space?
Anyway, when my plumber told me he never applied silicone sealant to the pan collar I realized probably all plumbers in Singapore also install toilet bowls without applying silicone sealant!
That is very unhygienic. Ask yr plumber if that is true. Probably he will tell you he don't use silicone sealant for your toilet bowl's pan collar too.
With unsealed toilet bowls we are probably breathing in all sorts of viruses and bacteria discharged from sick neighbors in the block without knowing it.
The HK health authorities at first were mystified how the SARS virus were spreading in the same apartment block. Finally they traced the spread to faulty sewage pipe.
The authorities did not reveal what caused the leak (in order not to spread public panic) but the culprit was the unsealed toilet bowl that allowed foul air (carrying the virus) to spread from one upper flat to another lower down. If the toilet pipe had merely been leaking water, do you think the affected flat owner would not have noticed that and left the leak unattended? Of course not! So I believe SARS had spread via the unsealed toilet bowl pan collar!
Now that my toilet bowl has been re-installed, there is no more foul smell !
So, please remind yr plumber to apply silicone sealant to the pan collar.
I had complained of a stench coming from the toilet bowl, particularly from 7-8 AM and around 7-8 pm, coinciding with the time when most residents on the upper floors use their toilet.
Obviously something was very wrong with the installation.
When the first plumber came several weeks ago to install the toilet bowl, I had asked why he did not apply silicone sealant around the rim of the pan collar, before he set down the toilet bowl over the collar.
The pan collar is the piece of plastic that connects the toilet bowl to the sewage pipe on the toilet floor. I had felt that a silicone seal would ensure that no smell escapes from the sewage pipe into the toilet.
The plumber said nonchalantly "nobody does that". I left it at that. He is the plumber and should know better than a layman like me, I thought to myself. How I wished I had been more assertive!
After installation, the toilet smelled for several days. Seemed that each time someone on the upper floors flushed the toilet, the smell would escape into my toilet.
I brought the matter to my ID's attention, and requested another plumber to re-install the toilet bowl. I had lost confidence in the first plumber.
After a lapse of several weeks, the new plumber came.
He was concerned he might chip the spanking new toilet bowl in the removal process. That was the ID's concern, not his, I told him, and in any event I could not live with a smelly toilet! He only needed to exercise care not to cause any chipping, that was all.
I told him what I had suspected to be the cause of the smelly toilet: no silicone seal on the pan collar. He agreed as much, though he was aware some plumbers usually do not apply any silicone to the pan collar and no one had complained of any stench.
He noted I had my air vent pipe removed. He said he had read in the papers that some residents had also complained of a stench in their toilets after the apartment block had been upgraded, particularly where the cast iron sewage pipe had been replaced with a uPVC pipe, so probably the problem had something to do with the removal of the air vent pipe.
The logic escaped me, so I was not persuaded.
The plumber got down to work. He managed to unseat the toilet bowl without damaging it. Well done!
To our surprise we found that the toilet bowl had two rectangular openings measuring about 3-inches square on the back of the toilet bowl chamber.
Ah-ha, so that explained why there was a stench: as there was no silicone seal on the pan collar, the smell escaped from the sewage pipe into the toilet bowl chamber, then through the rectangular openings at the toilet bowl base into the toilet room itself.
....
This is what a pan collar looks like. This one has an 1-inch offset:
Sewage pipe outlet - bad odor if inserted pan collar is not sealed with silicone
Thirty minutes later, the toilet bowl was seated back onto the pan collar, now with silicone sealant applied around the rim, as well as on the rubber ring, as the plumber felt that perhaps the toilet bowl outlet pipe was a bit small, resulting in the rubber ring making a less-than-perfect seal around the outlet pipe.
The improvement was quite immediate: the smell was perceptively much reduced!
It would probably take a few more days to confirm that the smelly problem has indeed been solved.
ADDENDUM:
It worked!! I was delighted this morning because the toilet for the first time did not smell.
So if your toilet smells bad, first check there is sufficient water in the toilet bowl. No, not in the cistern but in the toilet bowl itself. This water in the bowl acts as a barrier to foul air from the sewage pipe, and prevents any foul smell entering the toilet through the sewage pipe.
If the water level in the toilet bowl is high enough above the "S" bend, then you should suspect an unsealed pan collar as the culprit for the stink.
Now, what about the report that some people complained their toilets smelled after the HDB upgrading exercise?
I believe that had nothing to do with the replacement of the cast-iron sewage pipe nor with the removal of the air vent pipe. The reason for the stink was very likely due to the bad installation of their toilet bowl. It was likely cracks developed at the cement base of the toilet bowl when the sewage pipe was changed, and because the pan collar of the toilet was not properly sealed, foul air escaped from the sewage system into the toilet.
LESSON LEARNT:
Ensure your plumber applies a silicone seal around the pan collar when he first installs the toilet bowl. That is the proper and correct procedure to install the toilet bowl. In the west plumbers use a wax gasket to ensure an airtight seal between the toilet bowl and the sewage pipe.
Readers will recall that during the 2003 SARS epidermic, it was reported in Hongkong the virus spread from one floor to the floor below via the sewage pipe. Although details were not divulged in the press report, I suspect the leak was caused by improper toilet bowl installation.
When someone flushes his toilet on the upper floors, obviously the foul air carrying viruses and bacteria will be "flushed" into the toilet on the floor below through the unsealed pan collar. Hence the stink.
I would probably have remained ignorant today of how unsanitary my toilet installation was had I not experienced the stinky toilet bowl problem.
Now, even if you have a toilet bowl that is completely sealed so that no air could escape from the chamber once the toilet is cemented to the floor, it is still advisable to ask your plumber to apply silicone sealant to the pan collar. Otherwise you risk allowing viruses to enter your toilet each time someone on the upper floors flushes the toilet.
As we know, cement is porous and over time will develop cracks so that most people will find their toilets stink after some years, especially for those with unsealed pan collars. You can prevent the stink by getting your plumber to apply silicone sealant to the pan collar during the initial installation of the toilet bowl.
Why risk your family's health?
POSTSCRIPT: Public health was at risk so I posted the issue on a forum, see below:
A friend pm'ed me asking why apply silicone sealant when the plumber already used white cement to seal the toilet bowl to the floor?
Well, the silicone sealant is applied to the pan collar -- the piece that is connected to the sewage pipe hole. If the pan collar is not sealed, foul air (and soil too) will seep into yr toilet bowl chamber due to the air presure at work.
Like others, I did not ask my plumber to seal the pan collar when he first installed the bowl. After installation, my toilet smelled badly, particularly when someone on higher floors flushed the toilet.
My toilet was a 1-piece design, and had 2 rectangular holes at the back of the toilet bowl. Hence I could detect the foul smell. More importantly, I realized the risk I was putting my family to, breathing in bad air, particularly bacteria and viruses from sick neighbors upstairs after they had flushed the toilet.
If not for the toilet design I had chosen, I would not have detected the foul smell, and the problem probably would only surface several years later.
You don't get any foul smell if your toilet bowl has no openings and is fully sealed by the white cement onto the floor. But over time the cement will develop tiny cracks, that is when you begin to detect foul smell from the toilet bowl area. That happened to my old toilet (after 5 yrs), although at that time I did not know what caused the bad smell. Maybe the earthquakes from Indonesia over last 2 yrs was a contributory factor, causing tiny cracks in the cement to appear, thereby allowing foul air to seep into the toilet space?
Anyway, when my plumber told me he never applied silicone sealant to the pan collar I realized probably all plumbers in Singapore also install toilet bowls without applying silicone sealant!
That is very unhygienic. Ask yr plumber if that is true. Probably he will tell you he don't use silicone sealant for your toilet bowl's pan collar too.
With unsealed toilet bowls we are probably breathing in all sorts of viruses and bacteria discharged from sick neighbors in the block without knowing it.
The HK health authorities at first were mystified how the SARS virus were spreading in the same apartment block. Finally they traced the spread to faulty sewage pipe.
The authorities did not reveal what caused the leak (in order not to spread public panic) but the culprit was the unsealed toilet bowl that allowed foul air (carrying the virus) to spread from one upper flat to another lower down. If the toilet pipe had merely been leaking water, do you think the affected flat owner would not have noticed that and left the leak unattended? Of course not! So I believe SARS had spread via the unsealed toilet bowl pan collar!
Now that my toilet bowl has been re-installed, there is no more foul smell !
So, please remind yr plumber to apply silicone sealant to the pan collar.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
Posts
