Showing posts with label id. Show all posts
Showing posts with label id. Show all posts

Workmanship: Dispute Resolution

Workmanship Series
 1 Good Workmanship
 2 Workmanship: Dispute Resolution
 3 Workmanship: Walls & Floor
 4 Workmanship: Laminated Floor
 5 Workmanship: Electrical Work
 6  Workmanship: Air-Conditioner
 7 Workmanship: Doors & Architrave
 8 Workmanship: Gas Piping & Gas Dryer
 9 Workmanship: Kitchen Works
10 Workmanship: Hide Ugly Pipes
11 Workmanship: Windows
12 Workmanship: Plumbing

Disputes are bound to happen in any home renovation. Mine was no different. Though I was hard-nosed and demanding when it came to workmanship issues, I was also tolerant and non-confrontational. Amiable, in fact. I dislike abhor arguments and always avoid disputes as far as possible. To me arguments or disputes are non-productive. A waste of time and energy. In my case I was fortunate my ID was of the same ilk. We resolved major workmanship issues by focusing on possible solutions, not on who's right or wrong. We often discussed with a give-and-take attitude. That is, I always gave, he often took! *grin* Though there were occasions when I was unyielding. And he reciprocated by giving way to me. So we got along fine.

The Preliminaries
A major aspect of Dispute Resolution is therefore to choose your ID wisely. If you have a temperamental ID, you are headed for trouble even before renovation starts. If your ID is even-tempered and patient, disputes are less likely to happen. In my case, I assiduously avoided IDs who were impatient, short-tempered, and non-communicative. Those were struck off early from the short-list. But how did I know they were temperamental? Well, I gave each a personality test. That is, bombard the ID with questions. Bug, not merely ask, the ID for the quotation. Be loud. Be rude. Have an attitude. And observe how he responds. If you follow my example, you'll quickly know which ID is patient, even-tempered, can get along with.

You would also want to test the ID on his knowledge, contacts, and how he resolves problems with workers. That would give you an idea of his competence. Sure, no ID is perfect - but it helps to know where you stand with regard to the ID's personality, knowledge, competence, problem-solving ability. And how he treats and relates to his workers.

Finally, after going through the preliminaries, including site visits, you are now left with the final 2. One of whom you will select for your home renovation. The other would be a reserve in case the one you select pulls out at-the-last-minute. That happened to me, related in another post.

You will now want to discuss with the ID a method to resolve disputes. Just in case problems arise during renovation.

Disputes & Resolution Mechanism
Disputes and disagreements in the course of your home renovation may be easier to resolve if you and the ID first sit down together and agree on - for want of a better term - a dispute resolution mechanism.

First, you and the ID should agree on a standard of workmanship for your home renovation. You must be clear and explicit on the standard acceptable to you. To be clear and explicit, use photos of flats whose workmanship standard you and the ID can accept.

Second, tell the ID if there's a mistake in the work carried out, and you're unhappy with the work done, you have the right to withhold payment. And you will make payment only when the mistake has been rectified to your satisfaction. Agree with the ID mistakes are something that can be i) seen &/or ii) felt. Example: tiles of a different color from what you've ordered. Or worktop cracked and scratched badly by the workers. Or granite floor tiles that are not properly laid so that you could feel rough edges as you walk on the completed granite floor - a problem easily rectified with re-polishing after the floor tiles have been laid.

Tell the ID you're also penalized indirectly for any mistake made by the workers, because the home renovation will be delayed by the rectification work that has to be carried out.

But what if the ID or the workers are unable to correct the problem identified? Well, get the ID to agree when that happens you have the right to appoint another contractor to carry out the job. And to deduct the amount required from the renovation contract.

Finally, to underpin the resolution mechanism, payment for the renovation work should proceed in accordance with work completed, not upon delivery of materials to your home. Or based on a payment schedule that does not correlate with the actual work completed. That means you should not accept a quotation with progress payment based on the ID's schedule.

Summary
1 Show the standard expected - agree on what is good workmanship through photo examples
2 If poor standard, right to withhold payment
3 If still not good nor rectified, right to deduct from ID contract amount to pay another contractor
4 Be a reasonable guy - not asking for the sky, not hard to please, but fair, with a give-and-take attitude
5 Pay according to work done, not to ID's proposed contract

Workmanship Series
 1 Good Workmanship
 2 Workmanship: Dispute Resolution
 3 Workmanship: Walls & Floor
 4 Workmanship: Laminated Floor
 5 Workmanship: Electrical Work
 6  Workmanship: Air-Conditioner
 7 Workmanship: Doors & Architrave
 8 Workmanship: Gas Piping & Gas Dryer
 9 Workmanship: Kitchen Works
10 Workmanship: Hide Ugly Pipes
11 Workmanship: Windows
12 Workmanship: Plumbing

ID-User Experience

Useful blogs
1 Extreme Makeover@Pandan Gardens
2 Reno Journey to Our 1st House

Unfortunate ID-user experiences
3 Anyone Uses Ciseern ID Firm Before?
4 Artrend Design, Anyone Engages Them Before?
5 Will You Accept This Kind Of Workmanship?
6 My 10 Shortlisted IDs, Comments Please

Others
7 My 1st Major Reno! Will I Survive This?
8 A Journal of the Renovation Experience
9 Recommendation For Renovation Id / Contractor?
10 Sewage Smell From Toilet
11 My posts saved forumer $$$! See posts #24,#28,#35,#36,#37.

Note: Renotalk requires you to log-on to display photos.

Renovating your home is a very time-consuming, energy-ripping endeavor. Especially if you're passionate about your home and dream of creating a beautiful abode for your spouse and kids. Thus many readers seek our advice on choosing an ID/Contractor for their home renovation. Well, one common approach is to go by recommendation from friends and relatives or read forums such as Renotalk. But, as many have found out, retaining highly recommended IDs for your project does not guarantee a nicely renovated home! The process is more complex than that, as discussed in several related posts on Design Challenges & Solution.

We would urge you, if you have not begun your renovation or retained an ID/Contractor, to read about user experiences with IDs first in order to gain an idea of the problems encountered. And also to learn from mistakes made by others, such as yours truly, in their home renovation. This post seeks to provide a spectrum of user-ID experiences which may benefit you before you embark on your home renovation. After all, there are good IDs, and bad ones!

How to Research on the Net
I love and hate the Internet. "Er, how's that?" you asked. Well, I do a lot of research on the Net. The Net provides me tons of info, all accessible with a click of the mouse. But oh, so little time to read! And that's where the problem lay: I hate it when I have to wade through tons of useless info (read: junk) in my due diligence research.

But when I finally get the info I looked for - that's when I love the Net! You get immediate, useful info you can't and won't get anywhere else! Take for instance users' experiences - accessible on many sites - with a product you're keen to buy. Or what's new in technology, trends or gear. Books are often outdated on such topics by the time they are published and available.

So now I don't buy blind, like I used to before the Net was born. But you have to exercise prudence and read carefully. Not all posts or articles are genuine or sincere. Some are outright lies intended to mislead you to buy a competitive brand. But if you read through enough number of posts, you'll be able to form an opinion of the product you want to buy. If not, you simply continue your search or put off your purchase for a while.

Likewise, I have a love-hate relationship with forums. I love it when I come across intelligent, genuine posters with their helpful, sincere posts. They provide a service to others that money can't buy. But I hate it when I come across posters with their inane and gossipy posts. Posts that served to stroke their egos and nothing else. Or posters who treat the forum like their own 'kampong'. Using the forum to chit-chat. Not that I have anything against that, but it simply wasted lotta of time and bandwidth to wade through those chatty, gossipy posts. *Sigh*

However, I reserve my harshest comment for posters who are ignorant yet sensitive - forumers innocently giving wrong advice and not realizing they are a stumbling block to those seeking help or

advice. You don't want to intervene - bcoz you'll inflame their sensitive egos and start a flame war. It saddened me to see them misleading others with their misguided advice. And I was hapless about that.. until it occurred to me I could do something to help those seeking advice.

So - to cut to the chase - this post and blog is my answer to all those gossipy, time-wasting threads and posts on forums that frustrate one's research for relevant info and sound advice. I provide herein blogs and forum posts that are useful and relevant to your search for a good ID/Contractor. They also serve to highlight several points made in my blog posts about home renovation, how to choose an ID/Contractor, and mistakes made. Read those article if you wish to find out more.

Just a note: the articles / posts below posted on Renotalk forum are by no means exhaustive. Shout if you've come across posts or articles on the Net that'd be useful to others, ok?

Useful blogs
1 Extreme Makeover@Pandan Gardens
2 Reno Journey to Our 1st House

Unfortunate ID-user experiences
3 Anyone Uses Ciseern ID Firm Before?
4 Artrend Design, Anyone Engages Them Before?
5 Will You Accept This Kind Of Workmanship?
6 My 10 Shortlisted IDs, Comments Please

Others
7 My 1st Major Reno! Will I Survive This?
8 A Journal of the Renovation Experience
9 Recommendation For Renovation Id / Contractor?
10 Sewage Smell From Toilet
11 My posts saved forumer $$$! See posts #24,#28,#35,#36,#37.

Note: Renotalk requires you to log-on to display photos.

Update: ID Topic Revisited

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

Following came from a forum post on Renotalk and my response. Thought it would be useful to share it with other readers.

Note: I have edited poster's portions (shown striked-out) for clarity and also amplified my response where needed.

+++

QUOTE (GrandReno @ Mar 6 2011, 10:59 PM) *
Thanks BlueFly for the writeup on choosing an ID.

Definitely, choosing an ID is more than reading other home owners' recommendations. I agree. But my point is, it's very

difficult to know you've gotten a good one. No one can guarantee that. I've been to several IDs whom I feel are good. But when I read the reviews on Renotalk, I realized they were complaints against them.

You can ask many questions to sift out good IDs from bad ones. But the end result could be different from what you initially expected. Which is why many owners felt cheated. That's the scary part for me.

In short, you don't know who you can trust. You think you have a good ID. He or she makes many promises to you. Makes you feel good. You sign up. Then after that, problems happen. Which is what the poster of this thread is experiencing. And if you read other threads, there are many similar accounts too.

Even the reviews recommendations by forumers - I'm not sure how many are real, how many bogus impersonated ones.

+++

Hi GrandReno,

Nice user ID!!

Actually my point was: it is not solely the ID who is responsible for quality or good workmanship, as explained in my blog article. Asking forumers to recommend their IDs and following the advice is not doing due diligence nor the proper way to choose an ID. Other considerations in your final selection of ID need to be taken into account if you desire quality workmanship and outcome.

Good workmanship is produced by the team of subcons used by the ID. This was apparent when my ID ((i.e. short- listed but before I had accepted his quotation, sneaky huh? tongue.gif ) showed me some projects he handled - both reno-in-progress and completed ones. As you know, most IDs handle several projects concurrently, using different subcon teams for each project. Therefore, I insisted the ID use the same subcon team that had impressed me when I viewed one of the ID's reno-in-progress.

Second, lack of supervision. IDs like any one else, is not a superman. I saw my ID was burnt out handling too many

projects. So knowing mine may suffer from inadequate supervision, I often took time out to check on the work-in-progress myself (my ID usually was not around!). If I saw something was not right, I stopped work and called the ID immediately. He wld get it from me if he hung up or didn't respond within xxx min!!! He usually called back if he was too busy and after we talked, he would then speak on the phone to the subcon head and tell him what was wrong or what I wanted done or changed. That took care of matters. 80-90% of issues were resolved that way, on-the-spot. Lesson is: you've got to preempt, do the checks yourself, don't wait for mistakes to happen, and don't depend entirely on the ID. If you expect good workmanship to happen, dream on. It ain't gonna work.

My ID was a nice guy (although lazy), I liked him, and I cut him some slack. He also saw I was reasonable, he reciprocated with freebies. So we got along fine. My verdict and opinion of him is on my blog, if you wish to know.

Renosian: Thanks for yr pm. To read my article, click on the link below my user ID, ie. my signature below. The article name is underlined and hyperlinked for easy access. Simply click on the one you're interested in and it will bring you to the article, ok? Let me know if you need help further.

Cheers

Bluefly aka Greencoal







Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

Renovation Headaches

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

UPDATE:  Jan 2011

Hi bluefly,

thank u for ur honest comment =) i have seen ur blog and have actually
submitted a thread on my enquiry on my quote... but we have already signed the contract so hopefully things will turn out fine...am still worried coz the decision we made now is going to haunt us should we make a mistake =((

cheers
iseearainbbow

dear iseearainbow,

Yes, I know what you mean.  In the renovation industry there are 'black

sheep' IDs / contractors who don't care about the finer reno details or the customer's interests once the contract has been signed. They know that when problems happen, they can get away with it by passing the buck back to the customer ("do again - you bear the cost, ok?" ) or suppliers (see my post(s) on my laminated floor problem, bathroom water outlet issue, etc).

Moreover, even if the fault clearly lies with the contractor, many of us won't know what to do or where and whom to turn to for help.  The customer is always at the losing end and at the mercy of the contractor bcoz any delay means he cannot move into the flat as scheduled.  Sigh.

So we keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best, isn't it?

Yes, I get many emails from readers, desperately asking for advice and suggestion as to what they should do for their particular situation.  Too bad I could not help much, much as I wanted to.

I was not the one who had recommended the ID or contractor.  And if I find the fault lies with the contractor, he

could say I was biased and favored the customer bcoz I was a not in the construction line. (Or something like that, based on a real case when I tried to help a friend).

Someone also suggested I start a registry of reliable IDs,  contractors, installers, and suppliers who had done good work, based on readers' feedback and recommendation.

The problem is, how do you know the feedback is genuine and true, and not some falsehoods written by contractors / renovators colluding with their customers to provide false feedback to attract more customers?



As you know, I cannot and won't permit this blog to be used to endorse shoddy workmanship or shady contractors.

Well, if you or anyone has other suggestions and ideas, please shout, ok?

cheers

bluefly aka greencoal

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

ID Update

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

James informed recently he was no longer with Summit. But he is still contactable via his mobile phone.

So, what is the implication for me? Or for you, I mused. Will I still endorse him for reno work? Well, it depends. These are my concerns:

1 - Without Summit, can James still give me computer-generated design and artwork for my flat renovation?

If beautiful schematics and interior designs is important in your choice of ID, then you should ask James to show you PC-generated artwork of your proposed renovation before you sign him on.

This is bcoz many interior design firms employ only 1 qualified ID with the knowledge and skills in interior design. He is the guy who uses the PC to produce the layouts and designs for the customer. Many so-called "ID"s depend on that qualified guy to produce artwork to show their client.

James told me he's not a qualified ID. I appreciated his honesty. Which was one reason I decided to sign him on.  He had shown ability to understand

what I wanted. More importantly, he was able to produce the artwork for my deliberation before I accepted his proposal. Under Summit he had recourse to a qualified ID for such artwork, though I didn't know at the time I accepted James' quotation. Now that James is no longer with Summit you hv to ask if he can still produce PC-generated 3D artwork for you.


2 - Under a different firm, can I still expect good workmanship from James as ID?

James didn't do the actual tiling, wood-working, etc. He, like other IDs, depended on subcons for such work. So before I accepted his proposal I asked him to show me a few of his reno projects. Some were completed and some still in progress. The quality I saw was not consistent from project-to-project. Most were good, but quite a few were shoddy work. Despite that, I decided to sign him on after he had assured me he would use the particular subcon(s) with the excellent workmanship I had seen.

I still expect James to be able to source quality subcons for his projects.

This is bcoz subcons are independent suppliers whose primary contact is the ID, not the ID firm. The subcons depend on the ID, not the ID firm, for contract jobs.

The ID firm only provides the infrastructure for the ID to work. Such as an office, finances, qualified interior designer to produce artwork, etc. The ID will source subcons himself, and pays the subcon with money provided by the firm. When you pay the ID, the firm deducts a prior agreed % amount plus cost, e.g. 10% plus cost of supplies. The balance goes to the ID. That is the way most ID firms operate.


So whether you get quality workmanship depends on the ID and his subcons, not on the firm. And I endorsed James bcoz of the good relationship and understanding he has built up over the years with his subcons. He was thus able to give me the subcon teams - tilers, electrical, carpentry, windows, etc - that gave me excellent workmanship, the one(s) I asked for.

So before you sign on James you should ask to see his recent projects and obtained his assurance he is able to provide you the same subcon workers that had impressed you with the workmanship you saw. It doesn't matter which ID firm he has joined, since James' subcons will follow as they depend on him for jobs.

To sum, James still has his faults and weaknesses. But as long as you're aware of his failings, and take preventive measures yourself, I see no reason why you

should not use him. You should note however, that an ID is as good as his last job. That means if you have poor experience with James as an ID, let me know - show me photos of the shoddy workmanship, point out the mistakes and faults, and I will post your complaints and photos on the Blog. I believe this is one way to ensure James remains honest, don't cut corners, and continues to produce good workmanship to merit my endorsement.


Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

ID Contact

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

After much consideration, I have decided to publish herein some questions from readers and comments that may prove useful to other readers who may have similar

questions on renovation, contacts, pricing, etc.

The latest PM (i.e personal message) came from leeky on 20-Dec-09. He wanted the contact number of my renovation ID / Contractor. Below is an earlier response to a similar request from another reader :

--

PM: Contacts
Hi,

It has been quite enjoyable to read your post & blogs.

Will you be able to provide me the contacts for your painter & contractor?

Thanks in adv!!!
Sent by marveille on Apr 30 2008, 12:42 PM

--

Hi Marveile:

Thank you for yr kind words and support of my blog.

Painter's name is Ali hp 94605697. Search and read my post on negotiation with this guy pl. Wonder if I had post on my blog too? Will check. Been busy lah.

For the renovation work my ID was James Teng of Summit Design hp 90660968 (James told me he left Summit already - see post on ID Update).

When you negotiate it is advisable to start from their promotional offer where possible, and work from there. This way you will avoid letting the ID take

advantage of you e.g. if they sense you are "green" and too eager, they will go in for the kill - chop!! chop!! - like killing a pig. *grin*

So use their promotional leaflet itemised price-list as a starting point in your negotiation. Also, after you receive the first quotation try to see if you can negotiate further price markdown a few days later. This way you ensure you get a fair deal.

By the same token, treat yr ID fairly too. If you think he deserves praise for his hard work, acknowledge it and do not be too demanding or unreasonable when delays occur.

In my case, not only did my ID's subcontractor(s) have trouble meeting deadlines e.g. I'm still waiting for the plumber to finish kitchen sink, hot shower, and rest

of plumbing line but also Citygas - been waiting for 2 weeks now for appointment (!!). Finally they called a while ago to come on this Friday to fix the gas meter and to turn on the gas.

Also, some jobs depend on others -- so ensure loose ends are tied up to minimize delays.

Think i will put these comments on my blog -- as I've been repeating each time some reader messaged me for the ID's contact.

All the best on yr renovation and please share yr reno photos too.

Rgds

Next: ID Update

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

Engaging an ID

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

When you engage an ID, be sure he has the experience to handle your job. The renovation construction industry in Singapore is basically a free-for-all. Anyone can set up "shop" and get away from licensing requirements by working for established design firms or persons that have the background, experience and licenses required to handle renovation work.

Let me rephrase that. A newbie can be an ID overnight, with no formal background in construction or design, by "riding" on a design house with a track record and

necessary licenses. Many design houses have no formal in-house training and certification program, so once a newbie is taken on by the firm he is put to work immediately with a seasoned interior designer.

The more responsible ID will always be there to lend a helping hand to the newbie, but when work is plentiful and skill shortages develop, pressure builds. In such an environment supervision becomes lax and the newbie is left on his own.

It is therefore important you check out the ID's job sites -- both current and past, if possible. That is to ensure you get an ID with a good track record. However, be alert the ID does not pass off someone's work as his.

Also - be aware you may not get the same workmanship as that shown by a site visit, since the ID may assign different worker teams to handle your renovation. We therefore made a note to ask our ID to use the same workers that were employed at a particular jobsite that had left a favorable impression on us.

ID or Contractor?

Some readers asked if they should engage an ID or a Contractor. They assume a contractor will quote a lower price than an ID.

That is a myth: whether the guy you engage is an ID or Contractor, they are all businessmen - an ID is a contractor, and most contractors now pass

themselves off as IDs. So, don't make the mistake to assume you get a lower quotation price from a Contractor. The final quotation price you get depends on your negotiation skill, how badly the ID / Contractor wants your contract, and how much effort you have made in doing background research, such as checking prices for similar jobs from your friends or from others through forums like Renotalk.

So don't fall for the semantics trick. Tell your brain the term ID or Contractor is only a word, a label. What is important is whether he is competent and how is the quality of the workmanship, whether he knows his job. Ask questions like:

How many projects have you undertaken? Can you show me your on-going projects? Can I meet the owners?

Who are the workers? Are they your sub-contractors or employees in the same company as you? How long have you worked with them? How can I be sure you are not using workers who may be
learning-on-the-job at my expense? What happens if they make mistakes? What is the standard and quality of work I can expect? What happens if I am not happy with the workmanship?

I want to hack my bedroom wall to create a larger living space. Are you able to get HDB approval for that?

I wish to replace all the old sliding windows to casement windows, including the louvre windows in my bathrooms. How long would it take to get HDB approval?


Once you have satisfied yourself that the ID / Contractor is competent to handle your renovation, you then proceed to discuss the job scope. On job scope it is

important you give him a broad and detailed idea of what you want for the renovation. That means you should have done your homework and decided (1) what you want to renovate e.g. change the floor tiles, replace all the windows, replace old chute, hack the bedroom wall, rewiring, false ceiling, etc (2) the type of materials you want e.g. granite flooring, bamboo flooring for bedrooms, and (3) possibly the color and texture you want. You should also brief the ID / contractor on the workmanship quality you are looking for and the time schedule to complete the entire renovation.

The last step is the quotation and pricing of the renovation. Note you should only commence negotiation after (1) you have ascertained the ID / Contractor's competence and (2) he knows clearly the works you want completed within the timespan you have specified.

Next: ID Contact

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

Protect Yourself against Unscrupulous Contractor

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

How do you protect yourself against an unscrupulous ID/Contractor?

Visiting an ID's work at his on-going project site(s) and seeing for yourself the quality of the work done is at best a comfort, but not a guarantee, that he will produce good workmanship for your renovation, for the foll reasons:

(1) the sub-con team he used for the work you have just seen may not be available for your renovation,

(2) most IDs / Contractors have a (bad) tendency to accept more jobs than they can comfortably handle, leading to "rushed job" for your flat. [ tongue.gif Hint: now you know why I don't recommend too much my ID while my renovation is still not completed!]

So, how do you protect yourself against shoddy work and unscrupulous IDs/ Contractors, as well as against the possibility that an ID may not produce good work foir your renovation despite having shown you good work done at his other project sites?

Simple -- don't pay a cent until you see evidence of the work done for your renovation!!

Let me rephrase that: pay only for work done i.e. use the progress payment method to control your ID / Contractor. That is, if he has detailed his quotation, pay hm according to the work done e.g. suppose he quoted $1,500 for replacing the windows, pay him that amount on completion of that job, after you are satisfied with the work done.

Most IDs / contractors ask for 10-30% down payment on first signing the renovation contract. I told my ID, not in a harsh tone but using a gentle, persuasive tone:

"Why should I pay you when work has not started? I have more to lose than you. In my case, I cannot run away since you know where my flat is, but if you produce shoddy work, or turn out to be a cheat, you can simply disappear and I would be left with a headache! I want to trust you but I have to be careful lah."

Any reputable and experienced ID / design firm (which is what you should get) will have good relations with suppliers. These suppliers don't ask for immediate payment

upfront whenever the ID brings his client to select materials but allow the ID firm to pay 1-2 months later, depending on their business relationship.

Therefore there is no good reason why you should pay upfront 10-30% of the contract price on first signing the contract. The only reason the ID asks for down payment is in case you change your mind and don't proceed on the renovation with him. That is a lame excuse, because you have signed the contract already! So I told my ID his interests are already (legally) protected when I signed on the dotted line.

Of course, as my renovation progressed and I saw that my ID was responsible and did his best for me, I relaxed the payment control and began to trust him more.

In other words, instead of you trusting the ID, turn it around and make the ID trust you for payment!

Second: insisting on progress payment gives you control.

If the work is shoddy or unacceptable, you withhold payment until the problem is rectified.

Now, if the ID is responsible and fair, you don't even have to resort to withhold payment. Usually a responsible ID will instruct the sub-con to correct the mistake(s) once he has seen the problem, or when you pointed out such mistakes to him.

On your part, you have to be responsible too. If you change your mind about a specific job or you want something done in another way AFTER you have agreed with the ID initially on what you want done, that is NOT the ID's mistake but additional work and is your mistake. Gracefully accept your mistake and be fair to pay the ID for the additional work.

If you treat the ID fairly and with respect, he will likewise reciprocate if he is a fair and reasonable guy, like in my case.

As my experience of my ID grew, my respect for him grew too. Not that he is totally blameless or perfect, but I found him to be responsible and he has access to sub-cons that produce really good work, as you can see for yourself on my blog.

Now, assuming you got an unscrupulous ID / Contractor, what do you do? Well, simply withhold further payment and stop all work. That will cut your loss.

Take photos of the work done as proof of the poor workmanship. Unscrupulous IDs / Contractors always shun publicity and you don't need to worry about any legal suits. If any, your photos will usually clinch the case for you.

Flat owners should learn how to protect themselves, and help stamp out unscrupulous IDs / Contractors using the method I advocate.

===

Proposal: Registry of ID Contractors by Consumers


I was disheartened to read on the Renotalk forum sad and unhappy experiences that some owners have had with unscrupulous contractors. So this is a proposal:

Contractors registered by RADAC abide by a code of business ethics and rules. Or try to. Disputes with consumers still occur. Whether RADAC best serves the

interests of consumers or contractors is for each individual to decide, although common sense would dictate it is difficult for any organization to represent both opposing parties in a dispute, isn't it? Nevertheless I have a healthy regard for RADAC and applaud its good efforts to improve overall construction standards and to weed out unscrupulous contractors.

Maybe we should have our own consumer's registry or organization to table consumers' experience with their contractors, both good and bad experiences i.e. a registry to serve best interests of consumers -- along the foll lines:

ID or Contractor name: xxx

No of Consumers who have used the firm : e.g. 10

No of complaints of poor workmanship: e.g. 3

No of good recommendations: e.g. 7

Forumers who have completed their renovation would be sent a questionnaire and encouraged to submit their judgment / conclusion on the work of the ID / Contractor

engaged, and the results tabulated in the above registry, and linked to the relevant thread(s) for the details / blogs. Obviously, the contractors wld have the right of reply to complaints filed by a flat owner, and then it is up to the forumer to judge for himself the complaint. If the contractor concerned don't respond after the registry contacted him for feedback, that also wld be telling.

Lots of administration work, yes, but RenoTalk is the ideal forum to handle such a registry. Obviously in this preliminary post the registry proposal is bare and many details need to be flushed out.

Let's see first if there is support. Many owners are simply too busy and are only keen while doing their renovation. Once that is completed, interest would vanish, so the registry idea may not take root at all.

So, what do you think of the proposal? Would you support it? And would you volunteer your services for such a registry?

Next: Engaging an ID

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

How to Choose: ID / Contractor

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited

I benefited from the sharing of other forumers on RenoTalk.com in renovating their apartment, particularly their experience -- good and bad -- with their ID / contractor, and wish to pass on what I've learned and / or gained from my own experience working with a specific design firm and the ID.

My primary motivation is to assist those seeking to renovate their beloved apartment for the first time, particularly as

several forumers have shared horror stories of their renovation work outcome. To them I can only empathize, and thanked them for their sharing because I too benefited from their (bad) experience.

So I will tell it all -- where praise is warranted I will say it like it is, but where problems were encountered, I will not spare criticism, because in any renovation work there will always be issues and problems. It is how the ID / owner resolved the issue / problem that will determine the renovation outcome.

I have informed the ID of my intentions, and has his permission to tell it all, warts and acclaim, if warranted. He was game enough to permit me carte-blanche.

My ID was [ edited out on 2nd thought to make this a general posting and not a recommendation of a specific ID or firm ]. Of the 5 contenders for my job, he was my last choice (excl.gif) and how I ended up with him is another story.

But to start off, I will jump right in, and share how I managed to save some money engaging an independent paint contractor instead of waiting for my ID to do the painting / plastering after LNY.

It was a gamble that paid off.

***

This post deals with the preliminaries / preparation and choosing an ID / Contractor to handle your renovation.

Read forum postings to get an overview
First, go through this forum to read through experiences shared by forumers with their ID / Contractor. Get a good sense of the problems faced by flat owners when dealing with their ID and the standard of workmanship available / expected from photos posted by forumers.

Be aware that some ID posed as owners to "entice" business from forumers seeking

IDs or contractors, giving generally unashamedly strong recommendation on this ID or that ID. When you read these postings you can generally guess whether the recommendation is genuine or not. Why? Well, no ID or contractor is ever as good as some forumers have made them out to be. Almost all renovation works will encounter mistakes or the owner generally will have some unhappiness with the ID, hence any posting that praises an ID to the skies is generally suspect, in my books.

In my case, I decided to get a quote from an ID from this forum last Nov / Dec (you can search for that post), although I had felt the post could possibly be a self-promotion attempt, either by the ID himself or by his friend / colleague posing as an ex-client. So why did I still decide to get a quote from him?

Well, simply because the popular IDs recommended in the forum were being "chased" by almost everyone else and it took too long for me to get a timely response to my request for quotations &/or discussions from these IDs.

So I gave the newbie ID a try. After all, every ID needs a start on this forum, and I could give him a chance as I had some prior experience dealing with contractors and IDs in my work.

Next, prepare checklist and questions you may have
You should also prepare a list of questions you may have that you want to ask the ID. Further, you should have an idea of what you want for your renovation. Could be as simple as "I want a total makeover" or "I want to hack this wall to enlarge the living space", etc. Have some preliminary idea of what you want done before you contact the ID for quotations.

When I ask for a quotation, my prepared checklist of work I want done follows the same format (as amended to suit my own needs) given by most contractors/IDs when they submit their quotes. This way it is easy to make comparisons as how much each ID quote for e.g. "hacking the wall" or "Supply & lay homogeneous tiles to Living Room", etc.

Third, shortlist 4-5 IDs to obtain quotes
Once you have a shortlist of 4-5, contact them for their quotation, either by email

or in person. I drop those IDs who don't respond within a week, depending on how much I want him to handle my job e.g. give longer time for one who was genuinely recommended by people you know. I also drop those IDs who don't seem to be "hungry" for my job. Or who came across as "busy", "loftiness" or "exclusivity", because the truly good IDs -- in my experience -- are usually humble and down-to-earth.

Depending on the rapport you establish with the IDs, you may also ask to take a look at his actual work done for other clients, whether on-going or completed. That would give me an idea of his competence. [Note: This step should never be left out once the ID has given you his quotation.]

Some IDs only give you a show-around of his projects after you have accepted his quote, although some (the more confident Ids) may be willing to do that before you sign on the dotted line.

Bottom-line: Always ask to see an ID's work, whether he has been highly recommended or not. See for yourself the standard of workmanship done. Ask to see not only one job site but a few, to guard against "passing-off".

Generally if the owner of the flat is around when you see the project, you could ask the owner for his/her opinion of the ID too.

Next post: How do you protect yourself against unscrupulous ID/Contractor?

***
Q&A from forum (my id is Bluefly on Renotalk)

skyryen
post Feb 29 2008, 12:00 AM
Post #3
Newbie
*

Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 22-February 08
Member No.: 8829

Hi Bluefly

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm also looking forward to renovating my new premium 4rm flat (just got keys last Dec).

This forum is a great resource and I'm still learning. So far I have approached 1 contractor and 4 IDs. Still waiting for quotes and also looking ard. I can only pray that my reno experience will work out well and not turn into nightmares that I have read so much here.

Hence the safer route I think is to go for those "tried and tested" ones. I would agree to drop if the ID is not hungry for my business or is not responsive. If now already bo chap me , I wonder how it will be like if I engaged their services. Maybe my 20k budget is really too small fry?!. Hmm.....

Please share with me your "checklist and format" for quotes that you have so that I can try to speak their language and the sort of questions I should be asking them.

If possible, can PM me your current ID too pls? All help is welcomed!

Great tips. I will look forward to your next post. Thanks!

***

Aiyo, Skyrren, I just saw yr post today 16-Mar-08 -- alamak excl.gif -- because I didn't check back on the thread. A thousand apologies excl.gif

PM sent on ID's contact.

Give me some time to share more thoughts / impressions on my renovation as I ran into problems recently,

- with the movers (had to use 3 different movers),

- was locked in for 6 hrs in my MBR and had to call police / civil defence for help (not a fault of the contractor but the lockset, more on that story later),

- waited for several weeks for the windows contractor to change the old iron windows in my toilet & bathroom, without which tilers and plumber could not complete their works.

I will put up my format, checklist, etc (and maybe this post) on my blog later, and to ensure I don't lose track of it!

Let me know if you need other assistance. yamseng.gif

Related Posts
1 How to Choose ID
2 Protect Yourself Against Unscrupulous Contractors
3 Engaging an ID
4 Our Renovation Cost & ID
5 ID Contact
6 ID Update
7 Renovation headaches
8 ID Topic Revisited
 

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